Discussion:
[Fonc] The future of VPRI?
Dave Crossland
2016-04-17 20:53:30 UTC
Permalink
Hi

I ran into Walter Bender at the FSF Libre Planet event last month, and have
since been been reading up on OLPC. I was a G1G1 customer 8 years ago, but
I lost interest in the project and stopped paying attention soon after. I
have been intensely curious what happened to OLPC in the last 8 years, and
this naturally led me to VPRI.

So I thought I'd say hello on this list and ask you all what the roadmap
looks like for VPRI in the coming years? :)
--
Cheers
Dave
Dave Crossland
2016-04-18 19:32:17 UTC
Permalink
After more googling around, I wonder if anyone here has any experience and
insights with www.amber-lang.net or www.lively-web.org or www.pharo.org ?
:)
Paul D. Fernhout
2016-04-19 05:00:57 UTC
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This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.
Paul D. Fernhout
2016-05-08 15:20:09 UTC
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Try S8 Smalltalk ;-)
Browse an image with tools embedded in a web page
http://u8.smalltalking.net/profile/aleReimondo/239/index.html
[snip]
Hi Alejandro!

Thanks for the email about S8 and U8 in response to my previous FONC
post to address some issues I raised there. Sorry I did not see it
sooner as I had checked the list archives online for followups back then
but your email was sent directly to me and I just noticed it yesterday
in a different folder.

So, I played around with S8 yesterday, and it is pretty amazing.:-)
http://u8.smalltalking.net/

Here are some comments on that experience.

First, come practical issues I experienced:
* Firefox did not have draggable windows.
* There was a point at which after some use the Chrome window locked up
(on a Chromebook).
* The use of file-in format for writing methods is awkward.
* Response to clicking on classes and methods was slow (they turned red
probably to indicate a delay, and then eventually sometimes seconds
later the source showed up -- or even longer when looking at some
classes with a lot of methods).
* Trying to save an image snapshot led to an error ("Uncaught
ReferenceError: fileWrite is not defined") and it was not clear what it
was trying to do in the browser.

So, while S8 does a lot and looks great, there were still some rough
edges as I experienced them. That does not mean those may not be easily
fixable or maybe just due to my own inexperience with the system or
particular hardware etc.. I remember Squeak in its early days. And
ObjectWorks and Digitalk's Smalltalk/V too for that matter. Or Lively. :-)

But a deeper issues as I think on the social coding aspects, there is a
deep issue with social implications which Alan Kay has talked about) is
that there is the Blue and the Pink plane. One group (or one person at a
specific time) wants to take Smalltalk in new directions, and another
group (or even the same person at a different time) wants to use
Smalltalk as it is. That makes social coding harder to think about
within a specific system when changing a lot.
http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?BluePlane

For example, these are some changes I'd like (if I had time, which I
don't right now) to make in a Smalltalk (whether in a JavaScript-based
S8 or something else maybe even a C-based or Forth-based or
Assembly-based Squeak):
* Display methods as code that is evaluated to define methods instead of
file-in format.
* Support coding directly in JavaScript and maybe TypeScript for methods
(as essentially primitives, but also callbacks).
* Changing the Smalltalk VM so every (non-immediate) object was one or
more arbitrary records that could mix bytes, integers, floating point
values, and/or other object pointers all safely managed by the virtual
machine (which would also support safe-ish FFI calls and internal pointers).
* Building full support into the VM for numpy-like and scipy-like
mathematical operations on arrays over those records, as well as other
low level byte and float and integer manipulations.
* Reifying the Virtual Machine as a "vm" variable that messages could be
sent to for doing low-level things and using that for all low level
access (so, no use of "primitives" with magic numbers or similar methods).
* Support for generating WebAssembly for the underlying vm code like
Squeak compiles Smalltalk to C.
* Using high speed method dispatch tables (one slot per possible
selector) and maybe an object table.
* Replacing the class hierarchy with compositional construction of
message handlers from named functions which act like classes, where
every chunk of memory allocated (an "object") can have a message handler.
* Changing the Smalltalk syntax in various experimental ways, like using
C-style/JavaScript comments and strings and perhaps even supporting
JavaScript with messages
(e.g. new MyJavaScriptObject() x: 10 y: 20; ).
* Supporting including snippets of code in any language in a Racket-like
way.
* Maybe multi-threading support using the new Mozilla Parallel
primitives.
https://hacks.mozilla.org/2016/05/a-taste-of-javascripts-new-parallel-primitives/
* Eliminating the class side of Smalltalk objects which makes code
browsing harder and replacign that with factor methods or perhaps
instance methods denoted as "static" like in TypeScript.

Anyway, whether these are good ideas or not is not the issue here (even
as I think they might be good ideas to try). But doing most of them with
S8 (or Squeak) would make it hard or impossible to share code in systems
that made assumptions about a standard Smalltalk syntax or library. So,
the U8 social aspect aspect would presumably break down if you can't
just file in packages that run with the existing language? Yet, I could
do all that with projects on, say, GitHub, and people could discuss
them. Is there a way U8 could support all that experimentation as social
coding around Smalltalk?

Or maybe that is some future project for VPRI -- to support that kind of
"Blue plane" experimentation by a community doing Smalltalk-inspired
systems for the web browser or elsewhere?

Anyway, that's just a first response. I appreciate what you have done,
and it is inspiring.

I did not include your full reply which raised some other good points
because you did not post it to the FONC list, but I appreciated hearing
more about your work, and I encourage more people to check out S8 and
U8. Your work is a great contribution to moving the state of the art
forward for Smalltalk even as it may still be a work in progress worthy
of much more support.

--Paul Fernhout (pdfernhout.net)
"The biggest challenge of the 21st century is the irony of technologies
of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity."
Florin Mateoc
2016-04-19 12:45:10 UTC
Permalink
You should also check out SqueakJS.I am also in New York, maybe we can grab a beer sometime. We used to have Smalltalk users' group meetings in New York, I miss them :)

Florin


On Monday, April 18, 2016 3:34 PM, Dave Crossland <***@lab6.com> wrote:


After more googling around, I wonder if anyone here has any experience and insights with www.amber-lang.net or www.lively-web.org or www.pharo.org ? :) 
Kim Rose
2016-04-18 23:12:41 UTC
Permalink
Dear Dave,

Thanks for your message and interest in VPRI.

Other than some volunteer efforts VPRI has little to do, officially, with olpc these days.

We continue to work on projects and problems concerning programming langauages, UI design and tools for children and adults to amplify learning and human interaction through a variety of media.

As for a "roadmap", we have recently begun some interesting and exciting collaborations with new colleagues from around the globe. We plan to provide more info about this soon -- via vpri.org and other means of communication.

Regards,
Kim
Hi
I ran into Walter Bender at the FSF Libre Planet event last month, and have since been been reading up on OLPC. I was a G1G1 customer 8 years ago, but I lost interest in the project and stopped paying attention soon after. I have been intensely curious what happened to OLPC in the last 8 years, and this naturally led me to VPRI.
So I thought I'd say hello on this list and ask you all what the roadmap looks like for VPRI in the coming years? :)
--
Cheers
Dave
_______________________________________________
Fonc mailing list
http://mailman.vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc_mailman.vpri.org
Dave Crossland
2016-04-18 23:30:06 UTC
Permalink
Hi Kim!

Thanks for your reply :)
Post by Kim Rose
Other than some volunteer efforts VPRI has little to do, officially, with olpc these days.
Yes, indeed; OLPC seems to have persevered until around 2012, selling over
2M XOs, and then become very small. An OLPC France volunteer has led the
development of http://server.sugarizer.org as a shell for the many
activities that have themselves been ported to the web in the last 10 years
- including http://server.sugarizer.org/activities/Etoys.activity/index.html
:D
Post by Kim Rose
We continue to work on projects and problems concerning programming
languages, UI design and tools for children and adults to amplify learning
and human interaction through a variety of media.
Its great to hear that the work continues :)

I've struggled to understand what current and future work of VPRI might be,
and I'm also somewhat struggling to tie together the website's description
of the activities to the published works of the past.

For example, http://vpri.org/html/work/pichri.htm says,

"The research team at Viewpoints Research is working on ways to create,
illustrate and share powerful ideas content in both dynamic and WSIWYG
ways."


I'm not sure, though, if any of those ways has been published about? I
couldn't find anything about publishing in http://vpri.org/html/writings.php
:/
Post by Kim Rose
As for a "roadmap", we have recently begun some interesting and exciting
collaborations with new colleagues from around the globe. We plan to
provide more info about this soon -- via vpri.org and other means of
communication.
Cool! Who are these colleagues? I'd love to learn more about them :)

What are the other means of communication - as I'd love to subscribe :)
--
Cheers
Dave
DeNigris Sean
2016-04-19 12:53:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Florin Mateoc
I am also in New York, maybe we can grab a beer sometime. We used to have Smalltalk users' group meetings in New York, I miss them :)
Me too! I’ll contact Charles and see if he’s interested in reviving. Either way, I’m in for the beer ha ha!
Alejandro Reimondo
2016-04-19 13:32:27 UTC
Permalink
+1

I have contacted Charles a few weeks ago because I was there
and interested in make a presentation of S8 (for smalltalkers).
It has been looong time from the first presentation of S8
to the group; and there are a lot to discuss on how to
make our way with smalltalk today.
I will be happy and want to have more excuses
to visit NY again :-); so if you meet, I would like
to fly from home (in Buenos Aires) to share how
we are doing smalltalk today in complete
integration with the world.
Ale.

[*] S8 let us implement dynamic native applications
for iOS (100% in smalltalk), also server side apps
(desktop win/osx, ios and/or android server running
also IN the phone)
Post by DeNigris Sean
Post by Florin Mateoc
I am also in New York, maybe we can grab a beer sometime. We used to have Smalltalk users' group meetings in New York, I miss them :)
Me too! I’ll contact Charles and see if he’s interested in reviving. Either way, I’m in for the beer ha ha!
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Dave Crossland
2016-04-21 23:20:32 UTC
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Hi

Thanks for all your replies - lots for me to read up on before I get back
with a real reply :D

I'd love to meet up in NYC - I work from 15th St and 8th Ave, so can meet
anywhere in lower Manhattan really, and Wednesday or Thursday evenings next
week are both good for me :)

Cheers
Dave
Florin Mateoc
2016-04-23 16:01:33 UTC
Permalink
This Wednesday is good for me too
Florin


On Thursday, April 21, 2016 7:22 PM, Dave Crossland <***@lab6.com> wrote:



Hi
Thanks for all your replies - lots for me to read up on before I get back with a real reply :D
I'd love to meet up in NYC - I work from 15th St and 8th Ave, so can meet anywhere in lower Manhattan really, and Wednesday or Thursday evenings next week are both good for me :) 
CheersDave
Dave Crossland
2016-04-27 16:26:54 UTC
Permalink
Hi
Post by Dave Crossland
I'd love to meet up in NYC - I work from 15th St and 8th Ave, so can meet
anywhere in lower Manhattan really, and Wednesday or Thursday evenings
next week are both good for me :)
Sorry Florin, I didn't make any better plans for this.

How about Thursday May 5th at 7pm at Starbucks at think coffee on 8th Ave,
just south of the 14th St ACE/L subway stop?

Cheers
Dave
Faré
2016-04-27 17:07:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Crossland
Hi
Post by Dave Crossland
I'd love to meet up in NYC - I work from 15th St and 8th Ave, so can meet
anywhere in lower Manhattan really, and Wednesday or Thursday evenings next
week are both good for me :)
Sorry Florin, I didn't make any better plans for this.
How about Thursday May 5th at 7pm at Starbucks at think coffee on 8th Ave,
just south of the 14th St ACE/L subway stop?
I'll be there, too!

—♯ƒ • François-René ÐVB Rideau •Reflection&Cybernethics• http://fare.tunes.org
Who released the most slaves? The one who spent his wealth buying them back?
Or the capitalist who found a way to power mills with water? — Paul Claudel
Florin Mateoc
2016-04-27 17:50:28 UTC
Permalink
Can we make it 7:30pm?


On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 12:28 PM, Dave Crossland <***@lab6.com> wrote:


Hi
On 21 April 2016 at 19:20, Dave Crossland <***@lab6.com> wrote:

I'd love to meet up in NYC - I work from 15th St and 8th Ave, so can meet anywhere in lower Manhattan really, and Wednesday or Thursday evenings next week are both good for me :) 

Sorry Florin, I didn't make any better plans for this. 
How about Thursday May 5th at 7pm at Starbucks at think coffee on 8th Ave, just south of the 14th St ACE/L subway stop?
CheersDave
Dave Crossland
2016-04-27 17:54:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Crossland
How about Thursday May 5th at 7pm at Starbucks at think coffee on 8th Ave,
just south of the 14th St ACE/L subway stop?
Sorry I mean at think coffee NOT starbucks - 73 8th Ave, New York, NY 10014
:)

7pm to 9.30pm, everyone welcome :)
DeNigris Sean
2016-04-28 02:16:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Crossland
7pm to 9.30pm, everyone welcome :)
Great! I should be able to stop by…
Thiago Silva
2016-04-28 13:33:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Crossland
7pm to 9.30pm, everyone welcome :)
Great! I should be able to stop by

I'm also in NY, would love to come by.
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Dave Crossland
2016-05-02 13:07:10 UTC
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Hi
Post by Thiago Silva
Post by Dave Crossland
7pm to 9.30pm, everyone welcome :)
Great! I should be able to stop by

I'm also in NY, would love to come by.
I'm really sorry but my wife bought some tickets for an event that evening
so I can't make it :(

Seems like there is plenty of interest though so I suggest you meet without
me :)

Perhaps we can schedule another event in June?
--
Cheers
Dave
Faré
2016-05-05 23:05:44 UTC
Permalink
The place is big enough that's it's hard to find each other if we don't
know each others' faces.

I wear a top hat with a 10/6 label.

Sorry for the mailing list noise. We ought to start some NYC meetup mailing
list.
Post by Thiago Silva
Post by Dave Crossland
7pm to 9.30pm, everyone welcome :)
Great! I should be able to stop by

I'm also in NY, would love to come by.
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Fonc mailing list
http://mailman.vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc_mailman.vpri.org
_______________________________________________
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Dave Crossland
2016-05-06 02:48:14 UTC
Permalink
Sorry again that I couldn't make it!

How was the spot?

When will the next one be - June 22? :)
Faré
2016-05-06 02:58:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Crossland
Sorry again that I couldn't make it!
How was the spot?
When will the next one be - June 22? :)
The spot was fine for the two of us (Florin and me).

For the next one... what about starting a mailing-list fonc-nyc, so we
don't clog this mailing-list with local messages anymore?

I just created this mailing-list, that you can subscribe to:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/fonc-nyc

—♯ƒ • François-René ÐVB Rideau •Reflection&Cybernethics• http://fare.tunes.org
I'm only a stupid AI, but my creator is a real genius!
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