[fonc] About the reduce of complexity in educating children to program

[Iliya Georgiev]

Hello,
I am addressing this letter mainly to Mr. Alan Kay and his fellows at VPRI.
I have an idea how to reduce complexity in educating children to program.
This seems to be a part of a goal of the VPRI "to improve "powerful ideas
education" for the world's children".

But in case my idea turns into success, a moral hazard emerges. If the
children (6-14 years old) understand things better and can even program,
can they become a victim of labor exploitation? Up to know they could be

[Casey Ransberger]

Hello Iliya.

While you directed your inquiry to the people at VPRI (and I'm not there,) I hope you'll forgive my curiosity.

Questions inline, and hopefully not too many of them.

Post by Iliya Georgiev
Hello,
I am addressing this letter mainly to Mr. Alan Kay and his fellows at VPRI. I have an idea how to reduce complexity in educating children to program. This seems to be a part of a goal of the VPRI "to improve "powerful ideas education" for the world's children".
But in case my idea turns into success, a moral hazard emerges. If the children (6-14 years old) understand things better and can even program, can they become a victim of labor exploitation?

All stop. Anyone can be exploited. It just takes a big enough gang of exploitive people. Is this really a question, or is it more of a statement?

Post by Iliya Georgiev
Up to know they could be exploited physically. From now on they could be exploited mentally. OK, in the north in so called developed countries they may be protected, but in the south...
On the other side, don't we owe to the tomorrow people the possibility to understand the world we leave to them? Or they will be savages that use tools, but do not know how work.

I made a half-assed promise at the top to only ask questions, but your phrasing here struck me as stunningly beautiful. "The tomorrow people." If I'd written that, I'd be inclined to capitalize and underline the words. It'd be a great title for a science fiction novel.

Post by Iliya Georgiev
So if you want to wear the burden of the moral hazard, I will send the description of my idea to you and help with what I can.

All stop. Why must I decide to bear a burden before I read your words? What risk is there in sharing them without contract?

Post by Iliya Georgiev
You will judge, if it is worth to do it. It would be easily if people work cooperatively. That is a lesson children should learn too. The software could be made from one person, but there may be more challenges than one think. In case you agree to do it I will want you to publish online the results of the experiment. And if possible to make the program to run in a web browser and to release it freely too, just as you did in some of your recent experiments.

Isn't that asking a bit much? Would not asking for permission to publish your results yourself be enough?

Post by Iliya Georgiev
It is strange that unlike more scientists, I will be equally happy from the success and failure of my idea.

Ouch. Yeah, I see what you're trying to say. Once again, I've failed to ask a question. What I'll say instead: I've never known a good scientist who would not be happy to know that her hypothesis was incorrect, because in doing so, she's learned something about the universe and our place in it, which is what she set out to do in the first place.

Post by Iliya Georgiev
Best regards,
Iliya Georgiev

Hope I haven't created unnecessary noise with this post. I assure you that you will forgive my curiosity!

--Casey

[Pascal J. Bourguignon]

Post by Iliya Georgiev
Hello,
I am addressing this letter mainly to Mr. Alan Kay and his fellows at
VPRI. I have an idea how to reduce complexity in educating children
to program. This seems to be a part of a goal of the VPRI "to improve
"powerful ideas education" for the world's children".
But in case my idea turns into success, a moral hazard emerges. If
the children (6-14 years old) understand things better and can even
program, can they become a victim of labor exploitation? Up to know
they could be exploited physically.

[Constantine Plotnikov]

Hello Iliya,



Earlier children are exposed to complex ideas; the better is for them
(provided they are actually capable to handle them). Programming is a
playground with unlimited potential complexity.



I also think that modern idea of "happy childhood" as "the time of play
only" is somewhat broken. The brainware is formed on this stage and it
forms according to activities and feedback. The productive work that
actually contributes to society can provide the highest quality feedback
and thus creates the best playground for learning. MMORPGs actually exploit
this human desire for immediate and objective feedback from group
activities by giving artificial challenges. The energy spent on MMORPG
would be better spent on some productive work. Мoney is a feedback channel
with some problems, but it works relatively well (scalable, distributed,
supports decentralized decision-making, etc.).


Moreover, I do not think that will be able to teach children good OOP or FP
before they are 11-15 years old (reached Formal Operations Stage in Piaget
model). They likely would able to handle that. They likely at best write C
or even FORTRAN in OOP or FP languages (due to brainware limitations). So
they unlikely fit the software development process anyway.



See also: http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html



Best Regards,

Konstantin Plotnikov

Post by Iliya Georgiev
Hello,
I am addressing this letter mainly to Mr. Alan Kay and his fellows at
VPRI. I have an idea how to reduce complexity in educating children to
program. This seems to be a part of a goal of the VPRI "to improve
"powerful ideas education" for the world's children".
But in case my idea turns into success, a moral hazard emerges. If the
children (6-14 years old) understand things better and can even program,
can they become a victim of labor exploitation? Up to know they could be