Discussion:
[fonc] Re: [squeak-dev] [ANN] Alan Kay to talk about "Next steps for qualitatively improving programming" at HPI in Potsdam
Casey Ransberger
2011-07-23 01:41:02 UTC
Permalink
I did this dance too... Hmm... Seems the Mac installer comes with some kind of translation tool that's advertised to be able to output MPEG, maybe we can use that to save others the trouble of installing the Real client.

If I figure out that I can handle the conversion without spending any money, would folks have interest in the artifact produced?

This is a fun talk, I'm only about halfway through it, but I must admit having cracked up when he said, (and I have to paraphrase, because I don't have it in front of me,) "...if we were physicists, and we didn't understand what Newton did [slight dramatic pause] we should be shot."

LOL!
never mind. had to install the latest version and reinstall...
Hi Robert,
is it possible to put the media up on other than Real format? The Real players, both hd and normal quality, both crash for me on mac OS X 10.6.
A recording of Alan's talk is available online at
http://www.tele-task.de/de/archive/lecture/overview/5819/
Best,
Robert
It is my great pleasure to announce Alan Kay's talk here at HPI.
Title: "Next steps for qualitatively improving programming"
Venue: Lecture Hall 1, Hasso-Plattner-Institut Potsdam, Germany
Date and time: July 21 (Thu) 2011, 16:00-17:00
http://www.vpri.org/html/people/founders.htm
http://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hpi/anfahrt?L=1
http://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/news/beitrag/computerpionier-alan-kay-wird-hpi-fellow.html
(Alan's talk will be recorded and made available online.)
Best,
Robert
--
Robert Hirschfeld
Hasso-Plattner-Institut
www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/swa
--
best,
Eliot
--
best,
Eliot
Juan Vuletich
2011-07-23 02:47:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Casey Ransberger
I did this dance too... Hmm... Seems the Mac installer comes with some
kind of translation tool that's advertised to be able to output MPEG,
maybe we can use that to save others the trouble of installing the
Real client.
If I figure out that I can handle the conversion without spending any
money, would folks have interest in the artifact produced?
This is a fun talk, I'm only about halfway through it, but I must
admit having cracked up when he said, (and I have to paraphrase,
because I don't have it in front of me,) "...if we were physicists,
and we didn't understand what Newton did [slight dramatic pause] we
should be shot."
LOL!
I'd really like to have it in my local disk, and in any format that lets
me pause and resume, or go back to listen to some part again!

Cheers,
Juan Vuletich
Hans-Martin Mosner
2011-07-23 06:27:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Casey Ransberger
I did this dance too... Hmm... Seems the Mac installer comes with some kind of translation tool that's advertised to
be able to output MPEG, maybe we can use that to save others the trouble of installing the Real client.
If I figure out that I can handle the conversion without spending any money, would folks have interest in the
artifact produced?
This is a fun talk, I'm only about halfway through it, but I must admit having cracked up when he said, (and I have
to paraphrase, because I don't have it in front of me,) "...if we were physicists, and we didn't understand what
Newton did [slight dramatic pause] we should be shot."
LOL!
I'd really like to have it in my local disk, and in any format that lets me pause and resume, or go back to listen to
some part again!
Cheers,
Juan Vuletich
I'm currently converting it to AVI files, could make them available when that is ok with HPI (don't want to infringe on
any rights).

Cheers,
Hans-Martin
Alan Kay
2011-07-23 06:38:43 UTC
Permalink
Converting the file to something generally playable is fine with me, and you
have my permission to do so (insofar as I have any rights to the talk heh heh
...)

Cheers,

Alan




________________________________
From: Hans-Martin Mosner <***@heeg.de>
To: Fundamentals of New Computing <***@vpri.org>
Sent: Fri, July 22, 2011 11:27:12 PM
Subject: Re: [fonc] Re: [squeak-dev] [ANN] Alan Kay to talk about "Next steps
for qualitatively improving programming" at HPI in Potsdam
Post by Casey Ransberger
I did this dance too... Hmm... Seems the Mac installer comes with some kind of
translation tool that's advertised to
be able to output MPEG, maybe we can use that to save others the trouble of
installing the Real client.
If I figure out that I can handle the conversion without spending any money,
would folks have interest in the
artifact produced?
This is a fun talk, I'm only about halfway through it, but I must admit having
cracked up when he said, (and I have
to paraphrase, because I don't have it in front of me,) "...if we were
physicists, and we didn't understand what
Newton did [slight dramatic pause] we should be shot."
LOL!
I'd really like to have it in my local disk, and in any format that lets me
pause and resume, or go back to listen to
some part again!
Cheers,
Juan Vuletich
I'm currently converting it to AVI files, could make them available when that is
ok with HPI (don't want to infringe on
any rights).

Cheers,
Hans-Martin
Shawn Morel
2011-07-23 16:38:50 UTC
Permalink
What great brain calisthenics to start a saturday morning :)

Since I'm of this (unfortunate) new breed of CS undergrads (2008). I've been introduced to CS in a dearth of CS history.

As an aside, the browser plugin may actually be a culprit to the crashing here. I've extracted the link to the real media stream:
http://stream.hpi.uni-potsdam.de:8080/Archive/HPIK_SS11/HPIK_2011_07_21_01_hd.ram

You can feed that into the "Open Location..." dialog
(no problems in the standalone player on OS X 10.6)

shawn
Converting the file to something generally playable is fine with me, and you have my permission to do so (insofar as I have any rights to the talk heh heh ...)
Cheers,
Alan
Sent: Fri, July 22, 2011 11:27:12 PM
Subject: Re: [fonc] Re: [squeak-dev] [ANN] Alan Kay to talk about "Next steps for qualitatively improving programming" at HPI in Potsdam
Post by Casey Ransberger
I did this dance too... Hmm... Seems the Mac installer comes with some kind of translation tool that's advertised to
be able to output MPEG, maybe we can use that to save others the trouble of installing the Real client.
If I figure out that I can handle the conversion without spending any money, would folks have interest in the
artifact produced?
This is a fun talk, I'm only about halfway through it, but I must admit having cracked up when he said, (and I have
to paraphrase, because I don't have it in front of me,) "...if we were physicists, and we didn't understand what
Newton did [slight dramatic pause] we should be shot."
LOL!
I'd really like to have it in my local disk, and in any format that lets me pause and resume, or go back to listen to
some part again!
Cheers,
Juan Vuletich
I'm currently converting it to AVI files, could make them available when that is ok with HPI (don't want to infringe on
any rights).
Cheers,
Hans-Martin
_______________________________________________
fonc mailing list
http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
_______________________________________________
fonc mailing list
http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Christopher Bratlien
2011-07-24 08:59:02 UTC
Permalink
Dr. Kay,
Thank you for giving this talk. Do you recall the list of papers Bob Barton instructed you to read, learn, and understand in 1966? Can you share that list of papers with us?
Converting the file to something generally playable is fine with me, and you have my permission to do so (insofar as I have any rights to the talk heh heh ...)
Cheers,
Alan
Sent: Fri, July 22, 2011 11:27:12 PM
Subject: Re: [fonc] Re: [squeak-dev] [ANN] Alan Kay to talk about "Next steps for qualitatively improving programming" at HPI in Potsdam
Post by Casey Ransberger
I did this dance too... Hmm... Seems the Mac installer comes with some kind of translation tool that's advertised to
be able to output MPEG, maybe we can use that to save others the trouble of installing the Real client.
If I figure out that I can handle the conversion without spending any money, would folks have interest in the
artifact produced?
This is a fun talk, I'm only about halfway through it, but I must admit having cracked up when he said, (and I have
to paraphrase, because I don't have it in front of me,) "...if we were physicists, and we didn't understand what
Newton did [slight dramatic pause] we should be shot."
LOL!
I'd really like to have it in my local disk, and in any format that lets me pause and resume, or go back to listen to
some part again!
Cheers,
Juan Vuletich
I'm currently converting it to AVI files, could make them available when that is ok with HPI (don't want to infringe on
any rights).
Cheers,
Hans-Martin
_______________________________________________
fonc mailing list
http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
_______________________________________________
fonc mailing list
http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Alan Kay
2011-07-24 09:37:27 UTC
Permalink
Wow, what a question!

Let me ponder this. I can certainly come up with a few of them. The class was
actually taught starting Jan 1967 (I entered grad school a few months before
this), so all the papers were from 1966 or earlier.

For example, a big deal back then was the design and implementation of
programming languages.


One of the things on his list was to read a book of papers that had been
gathered by (Stanley?) Fox from the UK. I recall that some of the papers in this
book were classics by Strachey and Landin on foundations of programming
languages, lambda calculus equivalents of Algol, etc. I recall that most of the
papers in this slim book were very good.

Another book on his list was by Iliffe (who among other things was the designer
of the Rice University computer, an early one using "keywords" which were called
"Descriptors" on the -- even earlier -- B5000). This book was about a new
machine design of his.

Another book on his list was "A Programming Language" by Iverson. This was
before there were any real implementations of what we now call APL, and there
was much discussion about how to implement it in a reasonable way.

McCarthy's "Lisp 1.5 Manual"

van Wijngarten's "A Generalization of Algol"

Wirth's paper of the same name (and drawn from the above),

... and his very good paper with Weber on "Euler" -- which used a B5000-like
byte-coded interpreter (what some would call a "VM" today) -- though it was
anticipated in a much stronger way by the B5000 itself.


The first Simula (I) paper by Nygaard and Dahl (Sept 1966 in CACM -- which was a
very good source in those days).

The papers by Irons, Floyd, Evans, Shorre, and many others about how to make
syntax directed parsers, and how to think about them.

There were also Wirth's "Systems Programming Notes" from his course at Stanford.

Randall and Russell's classic book about their Algol Compiler/Interpreter system
for the KDF9 computer (still a very good set of ideas today).

Quite a few papers in "The Annual Review of Automatic Programming".

Knuth's notes and drafts for what was originally planned to be one book.

Anatole Holt's notes on "Petrie Nets" and "Occurrence Systems"

Barton liked to be mysterious about his own work and did not include any of his
own writings in this list. But I tracked much of it down. I also had learned the
B5000 as my 3rd machine while in the Air Force a few years earlier, so I had
some sense of it. However, I did not appreciate many of the great ideas in it
until I started actually wrestling with systems design (and had Sketchpad and
the first Simula for context). Barton is probably the most deserving computer
scientist who never was given the Turing Award (this was a real miscarriage,
though he did receive the first Eckert-Mauchly Award for HW Architecture).

And tons more! (Many students today would think this to be a lot for a one
semester course -- but this kind of density was pretty common back then where
there was a certain amount of filtering and selection done in grad school).

For a more general idea of what the ARPA research community thought about
computing, take a look at the special issue on Information, Scientific American,
Sept 1966. Each article was written by the best person in each area -- and the
whole gives a sense of what had been done up to 1966 (and for me, what had been
done by my mentors and inspirators before I went to grad school).

I hope this will serve for now

Cheers,

Alan





________________________________
From: Christopher Bratlien <***@gmail.com>
To: Fundamentals of New Computing <***@vpri.org>
Cc: Fundamentals of New Computing <***@vpri.org>
Sent: Sun, July 24, 2011 1:59:02 AM
Subject: Re: [fonc] Re: [squeak-dev] [ANN] Alan Kay to talk about "Next steps
for qualitatively improving programming" at HPI in Potsdam


Dr. Kay,
Thank you for giving this talk. Do you recall the list of papers Bob Barton
instructed you to read, learn, and understand in 1966? Can you share that list
of papers with us?


On Jul 23, 2011, at 1:38, Alan Kay <***@yahoo.com> wrote:


Converting the file to something generally playable is fine with me, and you
have my permission to do so (insofar as I have any rights to the talk heh heh
...)
Post by Juan Vuletich
Cheers,
Alan
________________________________
Post by Juan Vuletich
Sent: Fri, July 22, 2011 11:27:12 PM
Subject: Re: [fonc] Re: [squeak-dev] [ANN] Alan Kay to talk about "Next steps
for qualitatively improving programming" at HPI in Potsdam
Post by Casey Ransberger
I did this dance too... Hmm... Seems the Mac installer comes with some kind of
translation tool that's advertised to
be able to output MPEG, maybe we can use that to save others the trouble of
installing the Real client.
If I figure out that I can handle the conversion without spending any money,
would folks have interest in the
artifact produced?
This is a fun talk, I'm only about halfway through it, but I must admit having
cracked up when he said, (and I have
to paraphrase, because I don't have it in front of me,) "...if we were
physicists, and we didn't understand what
Newton did [slight dramatic pause] we should be shot."
LOL!
I'd really like to have it in my local disk, and in any format that lets me
pause and resume, or go back to listen to
some part again!
Cheers,
Juan Vuletich
I'm currently converting it to AVI files, could make them available when that is
ok with HPI (don't want to infringe on
any rights).
Cheers,
Hans-Martin
_______________________________________________
fonc mailing list
http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
John Zabroski
2011-07-26 14:48:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Kay
One of the things on his list was to read a book of papers that had been
gathered by (Stanley?) Fox from the UK. I recall that some of the papers in
this book were classics by Strachey and Landin on foundations of programming
languages, lambda calculus equivalents of Algol, etc. I recall that most of
the papers in this slim book were very good.
"Advances in programming and non-numeric computation" by Leslie Fox?


Another book on his list was by Iliffe (who among other things was the
Post by Alan Kay
designer of the Rice University computer, an early one using "keywords"
which were called "Descriptors" on the -- even earlier -- B5000). This book
was about a new machine design of his.
I have mentioned this book before on this list [1]. It's called Iliffe's
"Basic Machine Principles", and his hardware design was so-called the Basic
Machine. There are two versions of the book. Incidentally, for an
interesting historical perspective on the Basic Machine and why it failed,
see [2] for the memories of one of Iliffe's colleague.

Basic Machine Principles is basically an attack on the von Neumann
Architecture and the use of base and limit registers to govern address space
segmentation. Iliffe thought that programs themselves should know how to
access their resources, and that they should only be allowed to access other
programs resources through explicit communication, and that such
communication the "obvious" solution to the von Neumann bottleneck.


[1] http://www.mail-archive.com/***@vpri.org/msg01329.html
Alan Kay
2011-07-26 15:07:46 UTC
Permalink
Hi John

The title of the Fox book sounds "hauntingly familiar", so that could be it. You
definitely have the title of the Iliffe book. Iliffe and Barton were friends.
When we started to think Moore's law might actually hold, one of the notions was
that you could have a lot of base-bounds registers that would confine executing
objects absolutely. This would allow objects to be both fine-grained and small,
and to be safe.

The base-bounds idea later got convolved with MMUs for page swapping, but they
are really different ideas.


Cheers,

Alan




________________________________
From: John Zabroski <***@gmail.com>
To: Fundamentals of New Computing <***@vpri.org>
Sent: Tue, July 26, 2011 7:48:59 AM
Subject: Re: [fonc] Re: [squeak-dev] [ANN] Alan Kay to talk about "Next steps
for qualitatively improving programming" at HPI in Potsdam




On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 5:37 AM, Alan Kay <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

One of the things on his list was to read a book of papers that had been
gathered by (Stanley?) Fox from the UK. I recall that some of the papers in this
book were classics by Strachey and Landin on foundations of programming
languages, lambda calculus equivalents of Algol, etc. I recall that most of the
papers in this slim book were very good.
"Advances in programming and non-numeric computation" by Leslie Fox?



Another book on his list was by Iliffe (who among other things was the designer
of the Rice University computer, an early one using "keywords" which were
called "Descriptors" on the -- even earlier -- B5000). This book was about a new
machine design of his.
I have mentioned this book before on this list [1]. It's called Iliffe's "Basic
Machine Principles", and his hardware design was so-called the Basic Machine.
There are two versions of the book. Incidentally, for an interesting historical
perspective on the Basic Machine and why it failed, see [2] for the memories of
one of Iliffe's colleague.

Basic Machine Principles is basically an attack on the von Neumann Architecture
and the use of base and limit registers to govern address space segmentation.
Iliffe thought that programs themselves should know how to access their
resources, and that they should only be allowed to access other programs
resources through explicit communication, and that such communication the
"obvious" solution to the von Neumann bottleneck.


[1] http://www.mail-archive.com/***@vpri.org/msg01329.html
Alan Kay
2011-07-26 15:12:48 UTC
Permalink
I checked a little more, and the Fox book you mention is indeed the one on
Barton's list.

Cheers,

Alan




________________________________
From: Alan Kay <***@yahoo.com>
To: Fundamentals of New Computing <***@vpri.org>
Sent: Tue, July 26, 2011 8:07:46 AM
Subject: Re: [fonc] Re: [squeak-dev] [ANN] Alan Kay to talk about "Next steps
for qualitatively improving programming" at HPI in Potsdam


Hi John

The title of the Fox book sounds "hauntingly familiar", so that could be it. You
definitely have the title of the Iliffe book. Iliffe and Barton were friends.
When we started to think Moore's law might actually hold, one of the notions was
that you could have a lot of base-bounds registers that would confine executing
objects absolutely. This would allow objects to be both fine-grained and small,
and to be safe.

The base-bounds idea later got convolved with MMUs for page swapping, but they
are really different ideas.


Cheers,

Alan




________________________________
From: John Zabroski <***@gmail.com>
To: Fundamentals of New Computing <***@vpri.org>
Sent: Tue, July 26, 2011 7:48:59 AM
Subject: Re: [fonc] Re: [squeak-dev] [ANN] Alan Kay to talk about "Next steps
for qualitatively improving programming" at HPI in Potsdam




On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 5:37 AM, Alan Kay <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

One of the things on his list was to read a book of papers that had been
gathered by (Stanley?) Fox from the UK. I recall that some of the papers in this
book were classics by Strachey and Landin on foundations of programming
languages, lambda calculus equivalents of Algol, etc. I recall that most of the
papers in this slim book were very good.
"Advances in programming and non-numeric computation" by Leslie Fox?



Another book on his list was by Iliffe (who among other things was the designer
of the Rice University computer, an early one using "keywords" which were
called "Descriptors" on the -- even earlier -- B5000). This book was about a new
machine design of his.
I have mentioned this book before on this list [1]. It's called Iliffe's "Basic
Machine Principles", and his hardware design was so-called the Basic Machine.
There are two versions of the book. Incidentally, for an interesting historical
perspective on the Basic Machine and why it failed, see [2] for the memories of
one of Iliffe's colleague.

Basic Machine Principles is basically an attack on the von Neumann Architecture
and the use of base and limit registers to govern address space segmentation.
Iliffe thought that programs themselves should know how to access their
resources, and that they should only be allowed to access other programs
resources through explicit communication, and that such communication the
"obvious" solution to the von Neumann bottleneck.


[1] http://www.mail-archive.com/***@vpri.org/msg01329.html
Alan Kay
2011-07-24 09:37:27 UTC
Permalink
Wow, what a question!

Let me ponder this. I can certainly come up with a few of them. The class was
actually taught starting Jan 1967 (I entered grad school a few months before
this), so all the papers were from 1966 or earlier.

For example, a big deal back then was the design and implementation of
programming languages.


One of the things on his list was to read a book of papers that had been
gathered by (Stanley?) Fox from the UK. I recall that some of the papers in this
book were classics by Strachey and Landin on foundations of programming
languages, lambda calculus equivalents of Algol, etc. I recall that most of the
papers in this slim book were very good.

Another book on his list was by Iliffe (who among other things was the designer
of the Rice University computer, an early one using "keywords" which were called
"Descriptors" on the -- even earlier -- B5000). This book was about a new
machine design of his.

Another book on his list was "A Programming Language" by Iverson. This was
before there were any real implementations of what we now call APL, and there
was much discussion about how to implement it in a reasonable way.

McCarthy's "Lisp 1.5 Manual"

van Wijngarten's "A Generalization of Algol"

Wirth's paper of the same name (and drawn from the above),

... and his very good paper with Weber on "Euler" -- which used a B5000-like
byte-coded interpreter (what some would call a "VM" today) -- though it was
anticipated in a much stronger way by the B5000 itself.


The first Simula (I) paper by Nygaard and Dahl (Sept 1966 in CACM -- which was a
very good source in those days).

The papers by Irons, Floyd, Evans, Shorre, and many others about how to make
syntax directed parsers, and how to think about them.

There were also Wirth's "Systems Programming Notes" from his course at Stanford.

Randall and Russell's classic book about their Algol Compiler/Interpreter system
for the KDF9 computer (still a very good set of ideas today).

Quite a few papers in "The Annual Review of Automatic Programming".

Knuth's notes and drafts for what was originally planned to be one book.

Anatole Holt's notes on "Petrie Nets" and "Occurrence Systems"

Barton liked to be mysterious about his own work and did not include any of his
own writings in this list. But I tracked much of it down. I also had learned the
B5000 as my 3rd machine while in the Air Force a few years earlier, so I had
some sense of it. However, I did not appreciate many of the great ideas in it
until I started actually wrestling with systems design (and had Sketchpad and
the first Simula for context). Barton is probably the most deserving computer
scientist who never was given the Turing Award (this was a real miscarriage,
though he did receive the first Eckert-Mauchly Award for HW Architecture).

And tons more! (Many students today would think this to be a lot for a one
semester course -- but this kind of density was pretty common back then where
there was a certain amount of filtering and selection done in grad school).

For a more general idea of what the ARPA research community thought about
computing, take a look at the special issue on Information, Scientific American,
Sept 1966. Each article was written by the best person in each area -- and the
whole gives a sense of what had been done up to 1966 (and for me, what had been
done by my mentors and inspirators before I went to grad school).

I hope this will serve for now

Cheers,

Alan





________________________________
From: Christopher Bratlien <***@gmail.com>
To: Fundamentals of New Computing <***@vpri.org>
Cc: Fundamentals of New Computing <***@vpri.org>
Sent: Sun, July 24, 2011 1:59:02 AM
Subject: Re: [fonc] Re: [squeak-dev] [ANN] Alan Kay to talk about "Next steps
for qualitatively improving programming" at HPI in Potsdam


Dr. Kay,
Thank you for giving this talk. Do you recall the list of papers Bob Barton
instructed you to read, learn, and understand in 1966? Can you share that list
of papers with us?


On Jul 23, 2011, at 1:38, Alan Kay <***@yahoo.com> wrote:


Converting the file to something generally playable is fine with me, and you
have my permission to do so (insofar as I have any rights to the talk heh heh
...)
Post by Juan Vuletich
Cheers,
Alan
________________________________
Post by Juan Vuletich
Sent: Fri, July 22, 2011 11:27:12 PM
Subject: Re: [fonc] Re: [squeak-dev] [ANN] Alan Kay to talk about "Next steps
for qualitatively improving programming" at HPI in Potsdam
Post by Casey Ransberger
I did this dance too... Hmm... Seems the Mac installer comes with some kind of
translation tool that's advertised to
be able to output MPEG, maybe we can use that to save others the trouble of
installing the Real client.
If I figure out that I can handle the conversion without spending any money,
would folks have interest in the
artifact produced?
This is a fun talk, I'm only about halfway through it, but I must admit having
cracked up when he said, (and I have
to paraphrase, because I don't have it in front of me,) "...if we were
physicists, and we didn't understand what
Newton did [slight dramatic pause] we should be shot."
LOL!
I'd really like to have it in my local disk, and in any format that lets me
pause and resume, or go back to listen to
some part again!
Cheers,
Juan Vuletich
I'm currently converting it to AVI files, could make them available when that is
ok with HPI (don't want to infringe on
any rights).
Cheers,
Hans-Martin
_______________________________________________
fonc mailing list
http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Leo Richard Comerford
2011-07-23 07:31:57 UTC
Permalink
I'd really like to have it in my local disk, and in any format that lets me
pause and resume, or go back to listen to some part again!
I have emailed you the gritty details of how I got the RealPlayer
files saved and running locally. Anyone else interested, please drop
me a line.
Cheers,
Juan Vuletich
Leo Richard Comerford.
Casey Ransberger
2011-07-23 21:10:38 UTC
Permalink
Drat. Tried to convert this, but I just get a dialog that says "convert only
works from a local file." I don't see an option to pull the actual video
file down, and IIRC .ram files are like trackers that point at a stream
rather than being the actual video data? I have a feeling that the reason
I'm unable to do this is by design, but I'm not certain.
Post by Casey Ransberger
I did this dance too... Hmm... Seems the Mac installer comes with some
kind of translation tool that's advertised to be able to output MPEG, maybe
we can use that to save others the trouble of installing the Real client.
If I figure out that I can handle the conversion without spending any
money, would folks have interest in the artifact produced?
This is a fun talk, I'm only about halfway through it, but I must admit
having cracked up when he said, (and I have to paraphrase, because I don't
have it in front of me,) "...if we were physicists, and we didn't understand
what Newton did [slight dramatic pause] we should be shot."
LOL!
I'd really like to have it in my local disk, and in any format that lets me
pause and resume, or go back to listen to some part again!
Cheers,
Juan Vuletich
--
Casey Ransberger
BGB
2011-07-23 21:43:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Casey Ransberger
Drat. Tried to convert this, but I just get a dialog that says
"convert only works from a local file." I don't see an option to pull
the actual video file down, and IIRC .ram files are like trackers that
point at a stream rather than being the actual video data? I have a
feeling that the reason I'm unable to do this is by design, but I'm
not certain.
IIRC, "ram" files are typically just URLs in plain-text, and the type of
contained URL is what determines what one can do with it.

looking into ram file:
it links to an "smil" file.

http://stream.hpi.uni-potsdam.de:8080/Archive/HPIK_SS11/HPIK_2011_07_21_01_hd.smil

note:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronized_Multimedia_Integration_Language

here is the contents:
<?xml version="1.0"?>
<smil xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2001/SMIL20/Language">
<head>
<layout>
<root-layout width="1344" height="768" background-color="#ffffff"/>
<region id="video" top="0" left="0" width="320" height="180" z-index="2"
fit="fill"/>
<region id="desktop" top="0" left="320" width="1024" height="768"
z-index="1" fit="fill"/>
<region id="toc" top="180" left="0" width="320" height="478" z-index="2"
fit="fill"/>
<region id="logo" top="658" left="0" width="320" height="110"
z-index="2" fit="fill"/>
<!-- region id="cutright" top="0" left="1339" width="05"
height="768" z-index="2" fit="fill"/ -->
<!-- region id="cutbottom" top="758" left="320" width="1024" height="10"
z-index="2" fit="fill"/ -->
</layout>
</head>
<body>
<par>
<video region="video"
src="rtsp://stream.hpi.uni-potsdam.de:554/Archive/HPIK_SS11/HPIK_2011_07_21_01_STREAM_video.rm"/>
<video region="desktop"
src="rtsp://stream.hpi.uni-potsdam.de:554/Archive/HPIK_SS11/HPIK_2011_07_21_01_STREAM_desktop.rm"/>
<img region="logo" fit="fill"
src="Loading Image..."/>
<textstream region="toc"
src="http://stream.hpi.uni-potsdam.de:8080/Archive/HPIK_SS11/HPIK_2011_07_21_01_hd_TOC.rt"/>
<!-- img region="cutright"
src="Loading Image..."/ -->
<!-- img region="cutbottom"
src="http://www.tele-task.de/images/white.gif"/ -->
</par>
</body>
</smil>


so, here are the video streams:
rtsp://stream.hpi.uni-potsdam.de:554/Archive/HPIK_SS11/HPIK_2011_07_21_01_STREAM_video.rm
rtsp://stream.hpi.uni-potsdam.de:554/Archive/HPIK_SS11/HPIK_2011_07_21_01_STREAM_desktop.rm

sadly, IIRC there is no good/direct way to download RTSP streams, but if
one could, they would likely have 2 video streams.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RTSP

or such...
Leo Richard Comerford
2011-07-23 21:59:35 UTC
Permalink
You can just download the individual items (lo and behold, RealPlayer
allows you to download the videos if you open them individually), put
them together in a folder with the SMIL file, and edit the SMIL to
point to the local copies. (This was the subject of my email to Juan
Vuletich.)

Leo.
Juan Vuletich
2011-07-24 01:27:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leo Richard Comerford
You can just download the individual items (lo and behold, RealPlayer
allows you to download the videos if you open them individually), put
them together in a folder with the SMIL file, and edit the SMIL to
point to the local copies. (This was the subject of my email to Juan
Vuletich.)
Leo.
Thanks Leo! For everybody else, the attach is the file Leo sent me.

However I could not download the individual videos from Real Player for
Mac. The urls are:
rtsp://stream.hpi.uni-potsdam.de:554/Archive/HPIK_SS11/HPIK_2011_07_21_01_STREAM_video.rm
rtsp://stream.hpi.uni-potsdam.de:554/Archive/HPIK_SS11/HPIK_2011_07_21_01_STREAM_desktop.rm

But I tried to get them via http, and succeeded. The urls are:
http://stream.hpi.uni-potsdam.de:8080/Archive/HPIK_SS11/HPIK_2011_07_21_01_STREAM_video.rm
http://stream.hpi.uni-potsdam.de:8080/Archive/HPIK_SS11/HPIK_2011_07_21_01_STREAM_desktop.rm

Now I have the complete smil as a local files, and Real is happy to
pause, rewind, etc.

It would be valuable to convert the videos to some other format, though.
What I'm not sure if there are better alternatives to Smil, to play both
the video of Alan and the video of the presentation together...

Cheers,
Juan Vuletich
Brad Fuller
2011-07-24 15:56:02 UTC
Permalink
This worked for me and VLC works with it. Thanks Juan.

Yes, it would be nice to somehow sync the two videos.

brad
Post by Juan Vuletich
Post by Leo Richard Comerford
You can just download the individual items (lo and behold, RealPlayer
allows you to download the videos if you open them individually), put
them together in a folder with the SMIL file, and edit the SMIL to
point to the local copies. (This was the subject of my email to Juan
Vuletich.)
Leo.
Thanks Leo! For everybody else, the attach is the file Leo sent me.
However I could not download the individual videos from Real Player for Mac.
rtsp://stream.hpi.uni-potsdam.de:554/Archive/HPIK_SS11/HPIK_2011_07_21_01_STREAM_video.rm
rtsp://stream.hpi.uni-potsdam.de:554/Archive/HPIK_SS11/HPIK_2011_07_21_01_STREAM_desktop.rm
http://stream.hpi.uni-potsdam.de:8080/Archive/HPIK_SS11/HPIK_2011_07_21_01_STREAM_video.rm
http://stream.hpi.uni-potsdam.de:8080/Archive/HPIK_SS11/HPIK_2011_07_21_01_STREAM_desktop.rm
Now I have the complete smil as a local files, and Real is happy to pause,
rewind, etc.
It would be valuable to convert the videos to some other format, though.
What I'm not sure if there are better alternatives to Smil, to play both the
video of Alan and the video of the presentation together...
Cheers,
Juan Vuletich
_______________________________________________
fonc mailing list
http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
BGB
2011-07-23 09:45:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Casey Ransberger
I did this dance too... Hmm... Seems the Mac installer comes with some
kind of translation tool that's advertised to be able to output MPEG,
maybe we can use that to save others the trouble of installing the
Real client.
yeah...
even on Windows, RealPlayer was giving me trouble with working
(initially crashing, ...).
got it playing, but having audio problems...
Post by Casey Ransberger
If I figure out that I can handle the conversion without spending any
money, would folks have interest in the artifact produced?
the big downside of MPEG-1 though is that it has a poor size/quality
tradeoff.

FWIW, XViD AVI is probably better, or maybe OGM/Theora?...
Post by Casey Ransberger
This is a fun talk, I'm only about halfway through it, but I must
admit having cracked up when he said, (and I have to paraphrase,
because I don't have it in front of me,) "...if we were physicists,
and we didn't understand what Newton did [slight dramatic pause] we
should be shot."
yeah...

in general it was a good video, and seemed to mostly make sense.


(sorry if I wander a bit with all this).

also the comment of people confusing their specific views for reality as
a whole.
I generally agree with this, as I run into this problem a lot in dealing
with people.

(maybe I can be accused of that sometimes?... I try to keep an open mind
though WRT possibilities, although admittedly I am a little less
optimistic of ideas which seem unlikely to really be workable or useful
in the near term, or whose adoption would be very costly or necessitate
fundamental re-engineering which seems unlikely to be able to happen
within a reasonable time-frame, or which would not likely offer much
advantage or could more likely be detrimental, ...).

but, I have gotten in lots of arguments, with people, where at the same
time I don't believe in a singular necessarily correct worldview, but
still choose to uphold a certain set of views which seem most-likely
correct (after all, at the end of the day it does little good to doubt
and twiddle away all ones time in speculation, most often one will just
pick something good enough and run with it).

although, in an "ontological" sense, I have no particular need for any
particular ontology, as "my world" just doesn't work that way.


hmm... people don't really as often call me "smart", but people are
apparently sometimes impressed by my ability to recall piles of
technical and other trivia. sometimes a big part of thinking is being
able to pull up a lot of related information from memory and then walk
the links between it all, to find problems, derive solutions, ...

but, it is nothing magic. most of this is trivia I have ran across one
time or another on sites like Wikipedia.


I suspect I generally mostly see the present and the past, and the
future is generally a bit anomalous except in cases where it can be
predicted via graphs or similar. granted, it is possible an xSTP-style
psychology may have something to do with this.

I distrust people thinking too much about the "future" as much of the
time it drifts off into fantasies and lala-land, and too far and one may
as well just be watching Star Trek or Gundam or similar... or if these
people are something like my dad, big elaborate ideas ("plans") which
rarely go anywhere as he doesn't bother to actually do anything, beyond
maybe trying to boss people around and get them to do busywork.

but, sometimes (seemingly more often in my case though) it is amusing
that someone can get something or something will happen, and previously
implausible-seeming ideas can suddenly become something that can
actually work. it is the magic of things just falling into place on
their own and working out well.


making things small: well, yes, I guess one can do this.
but, if one can pull off the same thing with less thinking by just
writing a large glob of code, well this seems to work fairly well as well.

it just isn't really clear what is the practical gain of striving for
this level of minimalism?
unless the goal is minimalism for sake of minimalism?
(this may require further evaluation).


maybe information can be distilled down somewhat, but what of the cost
that this will make the information beyond the grasp of mere humans?
say, math-like forms which people can look at and be like "now what is
this exactly"? then large piles of many words may be needed to give
context and application details (what it is and what it can be used for,
...).

it is like, me trying to understand SSA-form and SSA-based transforms. I
can see how it works, but can't fully ever get my head around how to
make it work. so, meanwhile, my code-generators generally tend to work
via a mix of stack-machines and good old procedural logic, and this
seems to work (apart from my main codegen being, buggy...).

this is why programming can be relatively easy, but things like math are
very difficult, and beyond the grasp of many people (but, some people
claim math is easier than programming, but this is itself a mystery...).


I don't personally use lex or yacc or similar, as personally I didn't
really see the gain (replacing an otherwise reasonably straightforward
task with opaque "voodoo magic" tools).

if one can do a C-like parser in C using recursive descent in maybe a
few kloc, what is the big deal? just write the parser in C using
recursive descent.

actually, most of my parsers (BGBScript / C/Java/C#/BS2, as well as
others such as for XML, ASM, ...), are mostly built on copy-pasted
versions of a lot of the same basic code.

actually, often, one can implement something by copy-pasting around a
lot of the code and specializing it for each task. apart from sometimes
having to copy/paste the code for patches, it can work fairly well.

usually larger things end up being consolidated though, as well as code
where core aspects have mostly separated out from its use-case-specific
details. other times, they diverge notably (becoming independent and
unrelated entities).

fairly common code and algorithms may also be stored in memory, and
typed-out as needed, ...


I have sometimes wondered if math people end up essentially memorizing
large numbers of common patterns which they recall and invoke as needed,
combined with any logic needed for which operations to perform and when
(as well as, however, these effectively people keep track of variable
scope, ...).

I have observed some that the output of math people doing their thing
(partly notes from actually trying in vain to pass such a class) happens
to sort of resemble the results of a compiler optimizer (potentially,
similar algorithms are at play?...).

nevermind that maybe I place into classes higher than I can do, maybe
because for the placement tests I used a more general "make math work"
strategy:
endlessly fiddling with the expressions in ones' head and re-evaluating
them until they work (guess and check). sadly, this strategy is often
unusably slow in general (may take many minutes of head-grinding per
problem).

well, there is also imagining the graph or probing for the answer, ...

in high-school math classes, "solving" most things was simply a matter
of recognizing the expression pattern, performing a little arithmetic on
the constants, and having the answer (like, quadratic formula and so
on). like basically A->B pattern matching and replacement, typically all
done in a single step (almost sort of like a regex or sed or similar,
but with arithmetic...).

scary though is when one finds that none of their usual strategies work,
like they have encountered something far more sinister.


or such...
Brad Fuller
2011-07-26 18:35:13 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 14:06, Robert Hirschfeld
A recording of Alan's talk is available online at
 http://www.tele-task.de/de/archive/lecture/overview/5819/
I've taken the two files that were supplied in RealMedia format,
composited to one file and made them available in AVC/MP4 on my site.
There are two versions available, 245MB and 500MB.

http://www.bradfuller.com/squeak/

Please Note: I don't know if these are copyrighted, if so, and you'd
like me to remove them, I will do so immediately.

If I had the original files, the quality would have been better, but I
think they will do fine. If you have the originals, and want my edits,
please let me know and I can substitute the files I have easily and
re-render. I can also make them smaller size if you'd like.

brad

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